This is wonderful! I grew up in St Albans, and now live in Cottingham. We claim to be the largest village in England, and I can confirm that it isn’t as big as St Albans*, so there's that. I work in Kingston upon Hull, which I thought was a city but now I'm not so sure and will have to go away and check.
*Although the hospital is bigger, the branch of Boots isn't.
A great read. Similarly, I’d be interested in understanding what constitutes a village. It might sound tedious, but the new definition of “grey belt” land is full of clarifications like this:
“Purpose B – to prevent neighbouring towns merging into one another
This purpose relates to the merging of towns, not villages.”
Traditionally (and not technically) a village had a church, a town had a market, and a city had a cathedral - but none of these have any basis in fact. I’m always intrigued by Southwell which has a cathedral (unlike Nottingham) but isn’t a city because, when the minster became a cathedral, there was no town council to apply to Queen Victoria. Which kinda shows how silly it all is. Although, living in St Albans, we are definitely a city!!
I’ve never understood what all the fuss is about. There don’t seem to be any benefits to being a city, other than increased prestige and “local pride” (according to google)
When I was about 6 my dad got offered a job in Milton Keynes, or his work was considering expanding to Milton Keynes or something, anyway whatever the reason I ended up there at night in a semi-constructed factory/warehouse building and in the toilets there was no water and a solid turd at the bottom of the bowl and every time I hear Milton Keynes I involuntarily immediately see and smell that turd
The county, if any, of Warrington bears investigation. The ancient border between Cheshire and Lancashire is the River Mersey which runs right through the centre of the town, although the nearby Manchester Ship Canal has also played a part in dividing the population (and has been far more disruptive to north-south travel since its bridges randomly close to road traffic to allow ships to pass (less often these days). People north of the river think they're in Lancashire and people south of the river believe they are in Cheshire.
...
You know what, I can't be bothered to type it all in. I got Gemini to summarise it for me. Although I should add that there are plans afoot to merge Warrington and Cheshire into a single authority named, er, "Warrington and Cheshire". No good can come of this - I lived in Worcestershire when it was subsumed into an invented authority named "The County of Hereford and Worcester". Didn't last long.
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Pre-1974: Warrington itself was a County Borough, meaning it administered its own affairs independently of the surrounding county council. It was geographically and historically situated within Lancashire. Areas immediately south of the River Mersey (like Lymm, Stockton Heath) were part of the administrative county of Cheshire. The River Mersey largely acted as the county boundary.
Local Government Act 1972 (Effective April 1, 1974): This was the major shake-up.
The County Borough of Warrington was abolished.
A new, larger Warrington Borough Council (a non-metropolitan district) was created.
Crucially, this new borough was placed entirely within the county of Cheshire.
It incorporated the former County Borough area (north of the Mersey, historically Lancashire) and significant areas south of the Mersey (historically Cheshire), including Lymm Urban District and parts of Runcorn Rural District. It also took in some parishes previously in Lancashire's Warrington Rural District and Golborne Urban District.
This brought areas historically in Lancashire (North Warrington) and areas historically in Cheshire (South Warrington) under one borough council, which was itself under Cheshire County Council.
1990s Reforms (Effective April 1, 1998): Following a review by the Local Government Commission for England, another significant change occurred.
Warrington Borough Council was removed from the control of Cheshire County Council.
It became a Unitary Authority. This means it is now responsible for all local government services within its boundaries (education, social services, highways, waste collection, planning etc.), functions previously split between the Borough and County councils.
In Summary:
Warrington town itself moved administratively from Lancashire to Cheshire in 1974.
The 1974 changes created the modern Warrington Borough, uniting areas north (historic Lancashire) and south (historic Cheshire) of the River Mersey under one council within Cheshire County.
Since 1998, Warrington has been a Unitary Authority, independent of Cheshire County Council for local government administration, governing both its historically Lancastrian and Cheshire parts.
Was lovely to hear you read yesterday and have my map geekiness acknowledged by being in the presence of other map geeks (enjoy Metrodle)
I split my time between two cities - StA and Brechin. Brechin has a cathedral hence the city status, and a football team called Brechin City so it’s definitely a proper city! It’s also the seat of the Ramsey Clan, which includes Gordon of chef fame. He filmed an episode of a TV show there, cue much excitement, and continually referred to it as “Breckin” which was annoying.
I was glad Dunfermline made the cut to become a city. Historic capital of Scotland, nice Abbey, lousy football team and my Dad was from there. Equally delighted South Ayrshire didn’t. Although my Mum’s family is from there, and it’s lovely (if you like a lot of weather) your reasoning was spot on. A city should be an actual place, with a city centre, not a collection of places under the same administration.
Hope you enjoyed St Albans and enjoyed a St Albans (hot cross) bun.
Postscript on Medway and city status. Looks like this was about the last chance, as proposed local government reorganisation is due to merge Medway with other North Kent authorities. Maybe go back to trying Rochester (within the walls).
This is wonderful! I grew up in St Albans, and now live in Cottingham. We claim to be the largest village in England, and I can confirm that it isn’t as big as St Albans*, so there's that. I work in Kingston upon Hull, which I thought was a city but now I'm not so sure and will have to go away and check.
*Although the hospital is bigger, the branch of Boots isn't.
A great read. Similarly, I’d be interested in understanding what constitutes a village. It might sound tedious, but the new definition of “grey belt” land is full of clarifications like this:
“Purpose B – to prevent neighbouring towns merging into one another
This purpose relates to the merging of towns, not villages.”
I can’t find any official definition beyond this, which is hardly definitive: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8322/
So what a village actually is feels like something that’s going to get litigated at some point.
Traditionally (and not technically) a village had a church, a town had a market, and a city had a cathedral - but none of these have any basis in fact. I’m always intrigued by Southwell which has a cathedral (unlike Nottingham) but isn’t a city because, when the minster became a cathedral, there was no town council to apply to Queen Victoria. Which kinda shows how silly it all is. Although, living in St Albans, we are definitely a city!!
Having been born in Crawley, I feel very aggreived that you weren't more dismissive of it.
I’ve never understood what all the fuss is about. There don’t seem to be any benefits to being a city, other than increased prestige and “local pride” (according to google)
TIL you use the superior abbreviation of "until". Why do people add an extra L to make it "till"? (Why no, I'm not fun at parties, why do you ask?)
When I was about 6 my dad got offered a job in Milton Keynes, or his work was considering expanding to Milton Keynes or something, anyway whatever the reason I ended up there at night in a semi-constructed factory/warehouse building and in the toilets there was no water and a solid turd at the bottom of the bowl and every time I hear Milton Keynes I involuntarily immediately see and smell that turd
The county, if any, of Warrington bears investigation. The ancient border between Cheshire and Lancashire is the River Mersey which runs right through the centre of the town, although the nearby Manchester Ship Canal has also played a part in dividing the population (and has been far more disruptive to north-south travel since its bridges randomly close to road traffic to allow ships to pass (less often these days). People north of the river think they're in Lancashire and people south of the river believe they are in Cheshire.
...
You know what, I can't be bothered to type it all in. I got Gemini to summarise it for me. Although I should add that there are plans afoot to merge Warrington and Cheshire into a single authority named, er, "Warrington and Cheshire". No good can come of this - I lived in Worcestershire when it was subsumed into an invented authority named "The County of Hereford and Worcester". Didn't last long.
////
Pre-1974: Warrington itself was a County Borough, meaning it administered its own affairs independently of the surrounding county council. It was geographically and historically situated within Lancashire. Areas immediately south of the River Mersey (like Lymm, Stockton Heath) were part of the administrative county of Cheshire. The River Mersey largely acted as the county boundary.
Local Government Act 1972 (Effective April 1, 1974): This was the major shake-up.
The County Borough of Warrington was abolished.
A new, larger Warrington Borough Council (a non-metropolitan district) was created.
Crucially, this new borough was placed entirely within the county of Cheshire.
It incorporated the former County Borough area (north of the Mersey, historically Lancashire) and significant areas south of the Mersey (historically Cheshire), including Lymm Urban District and parts of Runcorn Rural District. It also took in some parishes previously in Lancashire's Warrington Rural District and Golborne Urban District.
This brought areas historically in Lancashire (North Warrington) and areas historically in Cheshire (South Warrington) under one borough council, which was itself under Cheshire County Council.
1990s Reforms (Effective April 1, 1998): Following a review by the Local Government Commission for England, another significant change occurred.
Warrington Borough Council was removed from the control of Cheshire County Council.
It became a Unitary Authority. This means it is now responsible for all local government services within its boundaries (education, social services, highways, waste collection, planning etc.), functions previously split between the Borough and County councils.
In Summary:
Warrington town itself moved administratively from Lancashire to Cheshire in 1974.
The 1974 changes created the modern Warrington Borough, uniting areas north (historic Lancashire) and south (historic Cheshire) of the River Mersey under one council within Cheshire County.
Since 1998, Warrington has been a Unitary Authority, independent of Cheshire County Council for local government administration, governing both its historically Lancastrian and Cheshire parts.
////
Was lovely to hear you read yesterday and have my map geekiness acknowledged by being in the presence of other map geeks (enjoy Metrodle)
I split my time between two cities - StA and Brechin. Brechin has a cathedral hence the city status, and a football team called Brechin City so it’s definitely a proper city! It’s also the seat of the Ramsey Clan, which includes Gordon of chef fame. He filmed an episode of a TV show there, cue much excitement, and continually referred to it as “Breckin” which was annoying.
I was glad Dunfermline made the cut to become a city. Historic capital of Scotland, nice Abbey, lousy football team and my Dad was from there. Equally delighted South Ayrshire didn’t. Although my Mum’s family is from there, and it’s lovely (if you like a lot of weather) your reasoning was spot on. A city should be an actual place, with a city centre, not a collection of places under the same administration.
Hope you enjoyed St Albans and enjoyed a St Albans (hot cross) bun.
No mention of Ripon?
Postscript on Medway and city status. Looks like this was about the last chance, as proposed local government reorganisation is due to merge Medway with other North Kent authorities. Maybe go back to trying Rochester (within the walls).
I love that the Isle of Man got mention 😎🤙🇮🇲